Last week we finally got it, from the horse's mouth, for the first time as far as I'm aware -- the straight story on how much a typical writer makes working for a content site.
On Freelancewritinggigs.com, Deb Ng interviewed Demand Studios senior vice president of content and editorial Jerry Reed.
Among her questions:
"What does the average Demand Studios writer earn in a given month?"
The answer:
"The majority of writers do this on a part-time basis to complement other forms of income. But, what we've seen is the typical writer earns a few hundred dollars a month."
Now, when someone says "several hundred" to me...it means $300. Maybe $400. Above there you'd say "more than several hundred" or some such.
Of course, the missing piece in this conversation is: They earn several hundred dollars a month...writing how many articles? And how long does that take them? If they're all $20 articles, that would be roughly 15 articles a month. Is that all they have time for? All they can get assigned? All they can stand?
When I write 15 articles in a month, I'm generally paid somewhere between $4,000 and $7,500 by my current clients, depending on the situation. Still think it's not worth the time to pitch editors?
One aspect of the article I found amusing was Reed's anecdotal report that "we hear from our writers that they earn somewhere between $15 and $30 an hour."
I think we can assume the writers Reed hears from are the ones who write real fast. Because if you can't write an article every 45 minutes or so, you can't make even that rate at $20 an article or less. And I'm going to assume he hears from the happy campers.
I'm hoping all the writers for Demand who're earning less than this quoted hourly rate will drop us a comment down below...because what I hear from my writers, the ones I mentor, is that they're often lucky to end up earning $15 an hour. They use phrases like "I feel taken advantage of" to describe their feelings about writing for mills.
And in any case, $30 an hour is ultimately not really a good wage for a freelance writer, as I've recently discussed on this blog.
I'm hoping that interview is read by a lot of writers who're fantasizing about content mills providing them with a substantial living. We know there are a few writers who do in fact earn substantially from these sites -- and that just means the majority of the writers are making even less than $300 a month, as the high-earners skew the average.
And the important thing to remember is Demand is one of the better paying content sites out there! Many pay less, or put you in bidding wars where you don't know if you'll get a dime. So this is pretty much the Cadillac pay of content sites.
Still sound appealing? I didn't think so.
Additional reading on the content mill issue:
7 Reasons Why I Won't Write a $15 Blog
The 5 Types of People Who Should Write for Content Sites
Screw You! My Short-Lived Experiment at Demand Studios by Kathy Kehrli of Irreverent Freelancer.
Also, coming up the first week of February over at the WM Freelance Writing Community...it'll be Content Mill Week! Posts all week about the world of writing for content sites. So tune in if this topic is of interest!
Have other educational links about working for content mills? Feel free to leave us a link.
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Content-Mill Writing... For $300 a Month
01/17/10
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Comments
Thanks for linking to my blog. Great post!
Agree with every word. You are a goddess.
I write for Demand Studios and I make $15-$20 an hour. I write anywhere between 12 and 20 articles a week, bringing in $180-$300 a week. But that is all the money I NEED right now.
I don't think things like DS pay "great money." I do find it unfortunate that online content has been so "devalued" that this is the kind of money you can expect to make in a lot of places online.
However, it works for me and my needs. See, I don't want to be a freelance writer. I write books. I self-publish. I've got a lot of irons in the fire but none of them involve a goal to "be a freelance writer." It's just not what I'm into.
But it's something I "can" do. DS is a no-frills way to get what I need accomplished. Their articles are easy to find once you understand their rather convoluted search system, and once you claim an article it's yours for seven days to get it written and submitted.
I only claim articles that I either have a background in, or that I can research really easily. And yes, I do write fast. I can turn out a good article in an hour including the research and editing before I submit it. Sometimes less if it's one of my "expertise" topics.
This allows me to work VERY part time to make the minimum amount of money I personally need (since I'm fortunate in that my husband pays most of the bills) so it frees up my time to pursue my actual goals.
If I wanted to "be a freelance writer" I wouldn't work for a content mill ever. But since I dont' want to "be a freelance writer" utilizing a skill I have to make more money than I could at a McJob, in a short amount of time to free up my time for more valuable work... it's a good set up for me.
It's not right for everyone though.
I don't think things like DS pay "great money." I do find it unfortunate that online content has been so "devalued" that this is the kind of money you can expect to make in a lot of places online.
However, it works for me and my needs. See, I don't want to be a freelance writer. I write books. I self-publish. I've got a lot of irons in the fire but none of them involve a goal to "be a freelance writer." It's just not what I'm into.
But it's something I "can" do. DS is a no-frills way to get what I need accomplished. Their articles are easy to find once you understand their rather convoluted search system, and once you claim an article it's yours for seven days to get it written and submitted.
I only claim articles that I either have a background in, or that I can research really easily. And yes, I do write fast. I can turn out a good article in an hour including the research and editing before I submit it. Sometimes less if it's one of my "expertise" topics.
This allows me to work VERY part time to make the minimum amount of money I personally need (since I'm fortunate in that my husband pays most of the bills) so it frees up my time to pursue my actual goals.
If I wanted to "be a freelance writer" I wouldn't work for a content mill ever. But since I dont' want to "be a freelance writer" utilizing a skill I have to make more money than I could at a McJob, in a short amount of time to free up my time for more valuable work... it's a good set up for me.
It's not right for everyone though.
Hi Zoe --
Thanks for sharing your story. I believe you are one of the 5 Types of people who should write for content mills that I talk about in that linked post -- people who use article writing on the sites to promote some other activity, or to just earn a little extra money.
Love your last paragraph -- great advice for everybody trying to make a living as a freelance writer!
Carol
Thanks for sharing your story. I believe you are one of the 5 Types of people who should write for content mills that I talk about in that linked post -- people who use article writing on the sites to promote some other activity, or to just earn a little extra money.
Love your last paragraph -- great advice for everybody trying to make a living as a freelance writer!
Carol
Thanks Carol, and I will certainly read your other article. There are some people at Demand who are the "super earners" and they routinely earn $600 - $800 per week writing for demand. But to earn that kind of money you have to be working "sweatshop labor" basically. And I see these writers and they're so proud of themselves, but I feel really bad for them.
Someone that talented and able to crank out good writing that fast, should be setting their sights higher.
But $300 a week (not a month) at Demand? Not that hard to achieve, and it's steady money. They pay twice a week via Paypal. It's a nice fallback or gap filler for people.
A just posted a blog on my blog about this topic: http://tinyurl.com/ygmsm2j
Someone that talented and able to crank out good writing that fast, should be setting their sights higher.
But $300 a week (not a month) at Demand? Not that hard to achieve, and it's steady money. They pay twice a week via Paypal. It's a nice fallback or gap filler for people.
A just posted a blog on my blog about this topic: http://tinyurl.com/ygmsm2j
What makes you think that Zoe is the exception to the rule when it comes to those who write for DS?
I'm willing to be that a large percentage of DS contributors are in a situation similar to hers. They see it as a way to grab some extra dinero by writing about topics that interest them. They don't have aspirations that involve making a living with their writing.
Yet you want other writers to read the interview that Reed gave because it shows how little the average DS contributor makes--as if that average has any bearing on their individual circumstances.
Meanwhile, you equivocate the kind of articles you write to the stuff that passes the relatively low editorial bar at DS. That's not comparing apples and oranges. It's more like comparing apples with extension cords.
The fact that someone wrote something doesn't miraculously imbue that material with value. My grocery list isn't To Kill a Mockingbird. Your blog post isn't on par with your paid freelance work.
You're well-paid for your work. Congratulations. You think that many writers could benefit from your guidance. Great. I don't necessarily disagree. I think there are people who make less than ideal decisions due to a lack of information, fears, etc. If you can open their eyes to things that may work better for them, I'm all for it.
However, bolstering the argument in favor of your outlook with arguments like the ones you often make while grinding your anti-DS/content mill ax is beneath you.
You KNOW that 15 articles for DS isn't the same as writing 15 good freelance pieces. You KNOW that the $300/mo. average figure isn't representative of what someone who might try to milk DS for every last penny would make. You're smarter than that.
I'm willing to be that a large percentage of DS contributors are in a situation similar to hers. They see it as a way to grab some extra dinero by writing about topics that interest them. They don't have aspirations that involve making a living with their writing.
Yet you want other writers to read the interview that Reed gave because it shows how little the average DS contributor makes--as if that average has any bearing on their individual circumstances.
Meanwhile, you equivocate the kind of articles you write to the stuff that passes the relatively low editorial bar at DS. That's not comparing apples and oranges. It's more like comparing apples with extension cords.
The fact that someone wrote something doesn't miraculously imbue that material with value. My grocery list isn't To Kill a Mockingbird. Your blog post isn't on par with your paid freelance work.
You're well-paid for your work. Congratulations. You think that many writers could benefit from your guidance. Great. I don't necessarily disagree. I think there are people who make less than ideal decisions due to a lack of information, fears, etc. If you can open their eyes to things that may work better for them, I'm all for it.
However, bolstering the argument in favor of your outlook with arguments like the ones you often make while grinding your anti-DS/content mill ax is beneath you.
You KNOW that 15 articles for DS isn't the same as writing 15 good freelance pieces. You KNOW that the $300/mo. average figure isn't representative of what someone who might try to milk DS for every last penny would make. You're smarter than that.
Jeremy Reed of Demand makes me think she's the exception, Carson -- sounds like she's making 4x the average for writers on the site.
I think my readers are smart enough to understand there's a big difference between editorial assignments from corporations and publications and work for Demand. I just added that in to note that building a professional writing career really does pay a LOT more...and can be worth the effort.
I don't feel like I have an ax to grind about mills, Carson. As you know, I've encouraged, 5 types of writers to write for them!
My mission is to help people who want to earn their living from freelance writing to earn well, earn a real living. The mission of this blog is to deliver information about ways to do that -- and ways to avoid ending up earning little. I thought Reed's comments would be enlightening on that score.
Thanks for being a reader!
Carol
I think my readers are smart enough to understand there's a big difference between editorial assignments from corporations and publications and work for Demand. I just added that in to note that building a professional writing career really does pay a LOT more...and can be worth the effort.
I don't feel like I have an ax to grind about mills, Carson. As you know, I've encouraged, 5 types of writers to write for them!
My mission is to help people who want to earn their living from freelance writing to earn well, earn a real living. The mission of this blog is to deliver information about ways to do that -- and ways to avoid ending up earning little. I thought Reed's comments would be enlightening on that score.
Thanks for being a reader!
Carol
Hey Carson,
Actually I DO have aspirations that involve making a living with my writing, BUT those aspirations do not involve "freelance writing." I have a different business-model I'm working on. DS is just "now money" while I build my little empire.
I also think it's important to note that... I write under a different name on DS. I try to make my articles as helpful and non-craptacular as possible, however, an article I write in an hour or less for DS for some quick cash, isn't necessarily a barometer of my skill as a writer. I consider myself a very good writer, as vain as that may sound to some. But DS isn't my Magnum Opus or anything. And that's not it's purpose.
Carol,
If I'm making 4x the average for writers on the site, they just aren't working it or they don't know enough or how to write fast or research fast (and hey, even if you spend more time on a higher paying article, being able to write at LEAST a rough draft fast, is a GOOD skill to develop because your time is your money).
I mean I'm making $180-$300 a week as a SIDELINE. I'm investing 3-4 hours a day MAX on DS, and that's only 5 days a week. And most of the time it's more like 3 hours, 3 days a week. Maybe I write faster than some people. I don't know, but I think a lot of people should be "thinking on paper" so they have something to edit. And those who can't crank it out... don't have that skill. But it's a skill that can be developed.
Actually I DO have aspirations that involve making a living with my writing, BUT those aspirations do not involve "freelance writing." I have a different business-model I'm working on. DS is just "now money" while I build my little empire.
I also think it's important to note that... I write under a different name on DS. I try to make my articles as helpful and non-craptacular as possible, however, an article I write in an hour or less for DS for some quick cash, isn't necessarily a barometer of my skill as a writer. I consider myself a very good writer, as vain as that may sound to some. But DS isn't my Magnum Opus or anything. And that's not it's purpose.
Carol,
If I'm making 4x the average for writers on the site, they just aren't working it or they don't know enough or how to write fast or research fast (and hey, even if you spend more time on a higher paying article, being able to write at LEAST a rough draft fast, is a GOOD skill to develop because your time is your money).
I mean I'm making $180-$300 a week as a SIDELINE. I'm investing 3-4 hours a day MAX on DS, and that's only 5 days a week. And most of the time it's more like 3 hours, 3 days a week. Maybe I write faster than some people. I don't know, but I think a lot of people should be "thinking on paper" so they have something to edit. And those who can't crank it out... don't have that skill. But it's a skill that can be developed.
Carol,
I'm sorry if I came off as being a little harsh, but I think you do a disservice to your readers and the cause when you write things like:
"If they're all $20 articles, that would be roughly 15 articles a month. Is that all they have time for? All they can get assigned? All they can stand?
When I write 15 articles in a month, I'm generally paid somewhere between $4,000 and $7,500 by my current clients, depending on the situation. Still think it's not worth the time to pitch editors?"
You create a comparison between 15 pieces of DS material and 15 of your well-written, high-quality freelance pieces. That's not a fair comparison in terms of time, effort, required skills, etc. Yes, your readers should be smart enough to see the difference, between the two. However, I also know that as a professional writer, you carefully choose your words and their placement for maximum impact.
I'm all in favor of people earning a real living. Based on posts and comments you've written, I believe that the two of us are in the same tax bracket, so to speak. I don't do that by relying exclusively (or even primarily) on content mills but my business model doesn't bear much resemblance to yours.
There are so many ways for people to build a solid career and a livable income, but I fear that too often those advocating a particular path do so at the expense of providing a well-rounded perspective on the ways various opportunities can be advantageously used.
I realize you have a post that outlines what are, essentially, exceptions to your rule. However, the tenor of your other anti-mill posts don't tend to reflect that recognition as much as they seem to advocate a "my way is best" perspective that borders on being dismissive of alternatives.
Maybe I read you wrong, Carol. I don't know. I'd just like to see the larger writing community embrace the potential of multiple options, including those that may be non-traditional and seemingly low-pay, to contribute to the creation of viable careers. Sometimes, I feel like you're so committed to your cat-skinning system that you won't even pretend other taxidermists have credible methods, to.
I'm sorry if I came off as being a little harsh, but I think you do a disservice to your readers and the cause when you write things like:
"If they're all $20 articles, that would be roughly 15 articles a month. Is that all they have time for? All they can get assigned? All they can stand?
When I write 15 articles in a month, I'm generally paid somewhere between $4,000 and $7,500 by my current clients, depending on the situation. Still think it's not worth the time to pitch editors?"
You create a comparison between 15 pieces of DS material and 15 of your well-written, high-quality freelance pieces. That's not a fair comparison in terms of time, effort, required skills, etc. Yes, your readers should be smart enough to see the difference, between the two. However, I also know that as a professional writer, you carefully choose your words and their placement for maximum impact.
I'm all in favor of people earning a real living. Based on posts and comments you've written, I believe that the two of us are in the same tax bracket, so to speak. I don't do that by relying exclusively (or even primarily) on content mills but my business model doesn't bear much resemblance to yours.
There are so many ways for people to build a solid career and a livable income, but I fear that too often those advocating a particular path do so at the expense of providing a well-rounded perspective on the ways various opportunities can be advantageously used.
I realize you have a post that outlines what are, essentially, exceptions to your rule. However, the tenor of your other anti-mill posts don't tend to reflect that recognition as much as they seem to advocate a "my way is best" perspective that borders on being dismissive of alternatives.
Maybe I read you wrong, Carol. I don't know. I'd just like to see the larger writing community embrace the potential of multiple options, including those that may be non-traditional and seemingly low-pay, to contribute to the creation of viable careers. Sometimes, I feel like you're so committed to your cat-skinning system that you won't even pretend other taxidermists have credible methods, to.
Feel free to mock me for accidentally leaving an "o" off of "too" at the end of my last comment. :-)
I'm not here to mock you, Carson!
I'm writing my ebook on breaking into freelancing now, and I think it embraces all of the great earning possibilities out there! Personally, I've blogged for corporations, written content for their Facebook fan pages...I'm very upbeat about the opportunities in new media -- the ones that pay $1 a word and $100 an hour, that is.
I definitely have a point of view on content mills, and it's based on many conversations with freelance writers. For most who're trying to build a writing career, I think they're not a positive place to spend time. So I advise them to build their career in other ways.
I'm not too busy to write about these issues because one of MY business sidelines has become mentoring other writers and creating books about how to earn well at writing. This side of my life is mostly about giving back -- I could make more writing -- just as great mentors helped me when I started out.
I'm actually up to my ears in rush assignments the next 48 hours...but I'm passionate about helping writers sort through the information out there and figure out how to earn more as fast as possible. In this economy, a lot of writers really need to do that.
I get that others disagree and say mills are a great way to earn...but I stick to my contention that they are a distinct minority among all the people who've experienced them. For most with writing aspirations, I think they're not a good choice. And when I find evidence of that coming straight out of a content-mill exec's mouth, you can bet I will be spreading the word about it.
As a reporter who's done quite a bit of investigative work, I think of this as needed expose stuff that needs to see daylight.
As Zoe said, for most, it's used as a sideline. As Reed said...$300 a month. Just want to make sure would-be writers know that figure as they consider whether to spend their time writing for mills.
Carol
I'm writing my ebook on breaking into freelancing now, and I think it embraces all of the great earning possibilities out there! Personally, I've blogged for corporations, written content for their Facebook fan pages...I'm very upbeat about the opportunities in new media -- the ones that pay $1 a word and $100 an hour, that is.
I definitely have a point of view on content mills, and it's based on many conversations with freelance writers. For most who're trying to build a writing career, I think they're not a positive place to spend time. So I advise them to build their career in other ways.
I'm not too busy to write about these issues because one of MY business sidelines has become mentoring other writers and creating books about how to earn well at writing. This side of my life is mostly about giving back -- I could make more writing -- just as great mentors helped me when I started out.
I'm actually up to my ears in rush assignments the next 48 hours...but I'm passionate about helping writers sort through the information out there and figure out how to earn more as fast as possible. In this economy, a lot of writers really need to do that.
I get that others disagree and say mills are a great way to earn...but I stick to my contention that they are a distinct minority among all the people who've experienced them. For most with writing aspirations, I think they're not a good choice. And when I find evidence of that coming straight out of a content-mill exec's mouth, you can bet I will be spreading the word about it.
As a reporter who's done quite a bit of investigative work, I think of this as needed expose stuff that needs to see daylight.
As Zoe said, for most, it's used as a sideline. As Reed said...$300 a month. Just want to make sure would-be writers know that figure as they consider whether to spend their time writing for mills.
Carol
Carson,
I'm not sure whether Carol is purposefully being snide toward people. Probably not. I think most people have a way of doing something and they're so plugged into it that they aren't bothering to sugarcoat their view to coddle everybody who disagrees. (I know I don't on my blog. It is what it is and if people don't like it, there are millions of blogs out there they can visit instead.)
But I haven't read enough of her blog yet to know.
However, even if that's her stance, it doesn't matter. Because the real issue isn't that someone on a blog has an opinion. The real issue is the many writers out there who can't seem to think for themselves and form their own opinions about things. What writers who blindly follow after ANYONE need, isn't another writing guru, it's a critical thinking class.
People who can think outside the box, and really have a strong self-understanding so that they know how to utilize their skills and the opportunities that come their way, are in a much better position than people who follow any one other person's "rules" or even any one "community's" rules. Because a community is just a bunch of people who share some opinions. There isn't a lot of real-world application there.
No one owes any writer (or any person) anything. Demand Studios doesn't, Vanity Fair doesn't. If $2k writing assignments suddenly become extinct, then the writers who survive and move forward won't be the ones standing around whining about the state of things. They will be the ones who were flexible enough and free-thinking enough that they saw opportunity when it arose and utilized it. Same thing if DS suddenly goes under. Or other content mills.
No one can tell you who you are or what you can do. And those relying on ANYONE on the Internet to tell them that, have larger problems than where their next freelance writing check is coming from.
I'm not sure whether Carol is purposefully being snide toward people. Probably not. I think most people have a way of doing something and they're so plugged into it that they aren't bothering to sugarcoat their view to coddle everybody who disagrees. (I know I don't on my blog. It is what it is and if people don't like it, there are millions of blogs out there they can visit instead.)
But I haven't read enough of her blog yet to know.
However, even if that's her stance, it doesn't matter. Because the real issue isn't that someone on a blog has an opinion. The real issue is the many writers out there who can't seem to think for themselves and form their own opinions about things. What writers who blindly follow after ANYONE need, isn't another writing guru, it's a critical thinking class.
People who can think outside the box, and really have a strong self-understanding so that they know how to utilize their skills and the opportunities that come their way, are in a much better position than people who follow any one other person's "rules" or even any one "community's" rules. Because a community is just a bunch of people who share some opinions. There isn't a lot of real-world application there.
No one owes any writer (or any person) anything. Demand Studios doesn't, Vanity Fair doesn't. If $2k writing assignments suddenly become extinct, then the writers who survive and move forward won't be the ones standing around whining about the state of things. They will be the ones who were flexible enough and free-thinking enough that they saw opportunity when it arose and utilized it. Same thing if DS suddenly goes under. Or other content mills.
No one can tell you who you are or what you can do. And those relying on ANYONE on the Internet to tell them that, have larger problems than where their next freelance writing check is coming from.
Zoe-
I couldn't agree with you more. At the same time, there are people who turn to our blogs and our comments in hopes of getting an introduction to their options, what works, what doesn't, etc. Even those of us who have been at it for years like to get the skinny on new options and developments. I'd just like to think that we'd be doing everyone a favor by being a bit more balanced in our assessments of those options and evaluating in light of specific contexts instead of embracing or dismissing them on some general level.
Carol-
I understand where you're coming from. I just don't care for the way you're constructing your arguments. Shouting from the mountaintop that the "average" DS contributor makes $X per month is utterly meaningless. You have no idea whatsoever how the numbers are distributed, what percentage of contributors are one-off experimenters, or if the numbers are actually skewed in the other direction by a handful of overzealous freaks.
Repeating that the average is $X and pretending as if you can divine something meaningful from that isn't investigative journalism. It's nothing.
You don't think content mills are a great idea for a lot of people. So be it. You're probably right. They have a time and a place. There are ways to tilt them to ones advantage under the right circumstance. Overall, they are what they are. Fine. Make your argument. Just make it fair and square. That, in my mind, involves more than a "there are exceptions to the rule I'm trumpeting" post in the archives. It requires placing various options in multiple contexts to understand their potential or lack of potential. Alternatively, it requires a disclaimer of some sort that explains that those options just don't fit with the particular model you advocate--leaving the door open for different perspectives.
Look at the last sentence of your last comment...
"Just want to make sure would-be writers know that figure as they consider whether to spend their time writing for mills."
Why? Because the figure is low? Is it low? Do you know the average time commitment? Do you know how much the average is different than the mean? Do you know the likely time commitment required to emulate equivalent earnings amongst those who read your recommendations? Of course not. You know that the mythical average contributor snags $300 per month. The only reason you want to spread that number is because it seemingly evidences the value of your approach when divorced from necessary context.
While I like lending a hand a perspective occasionally, I am a little too busy for this right now. Time to get back to work.
I couldn't agree with you more. At the same time, there are people who turn to our blogs and our comments in hopes of getting an introduction to their options, what works, what doesn't, etc. Even those of us who have been at it for years like to get the skinny on new options and developments. I'd just like to think that we'd be doing everyone a favor by being a bit more balanced in our assessments of those options and evaluating in light of specific contexts instead of embracing or dismissing them on some general level.
Carol-
I understand where you're coming from. I just don't care for the way you're constructing your arguments. Shouting from the mountaintop that the "average" DS contributor makes $X per month is utterly meaningless. You have no idea whatsoever how the numbers are distributed, what percentage of contributors are one-off experimenters, or if the numbers are actually skewed in the other direction by a handful of overzealous freaks.
Repeating that the average is $X and pretending as if you can divine something meaningful from that isn't investigative journalism. It's nothing.
You don't think content mills are a great idea for a lot of people. So be it. You're probably right. They have a time and a place. There are ways to tilt them to ones advantage under the right circumstance. Overall, they are what they are. Fine. Make your argument. Just make it fair and square. That, in my mind, involves more than a "there are exceptions to the rule I'm trumpeting" post in the archives. It requires placing various options in multiple contexts to understand their potential or lack of potential. Alternatively, it requires a disclaimer of some sort that explains that those options just don't fit with the particular model you advocate--leaving the door open for different perspectives.
Look at the last sentence of your last comment...
"Just want to make sure would-be writers know that figure as they consider whether to spend their time writing for mills."
Why? Because the figure is low? Is it low? Do you know the average time commitment? Do you know how much the average is different than the mean? Do you know the likely time commitment required to emulate equivalent earnings amongst those who read your recommendations? Of course not. You know that the mythical average contributor snags $300 per month. The only reason you want to spread that number is because it seemingly evidences the value of your approach when divorced from necessary context.
While I like lending a hand a perspective occasionally, I am a little too busy for this right now. Time to get back to work.
Just want to add this link from Allena at About.com -- Defending Associated Content. This writing teacher brings up a great point, and talks about one of my 5 Types of folks who should write for content sites -- people who just want to have fun and write, and if they earn a little, that's great by them. Love her definition of the difference between writing and working...
http://freelancewrite.about.com/b/2010/01/17/defending-associated-content.htm
http://freelancewrite.about.com/b/2010/01/17/defending-associated-content.htm
I can say, from participating on the forums at DS, that it really seems that the "average" DS writer CAN write an article at DS in about an hour. Some write faster, some write a little slower, but on average just the way the articles are set up (It's 400-500 words, not the Magna Carta), and the specific requirements etc, make it fairly easy to write to the format in an hour or less per article.
Having said that there are likely "some" DS writers who just never get the hang of it and can't write them that fast, and they generally drift off. Very few people are going to write an article for $15 if it takes them all day to do it.
And I would say that probably that $300/month average "is" likely skewed by the people who turn in very few articles, for whatever reason. My guess isn't that it took them backbreaking hours to write one article. I'd guess they aren't self-motivated, or they didn't find many articles that "they personally" either could or wanted to write, or they just only need a tiny bit of money per month for whatever reason and DS is filling in those gaps.
I could make more than I make at DS. I just don't "need" to, so I don't do the work required. Before it got to "sweatshop level" for me, I could probably earn $450 a week, I'm just not that motivated by Demand Studios. I do what I need to do and get out, so I can devote the rest of my time to projects more personally meaningful to me.
But anyway I think anyone who WANTS or NEEDS to make some money at DS is most likely going to make more than $300 a month. That's 5 articles a week, or roughly 5 hours a week.
Anyway, I do admit that it's a little irksome when people talk about what "the average person" can do. This isn't anything against Carol, but just the general tendency toward doing this. Because that doesn't tell you what YOU can do. If I had a nickel for every person who told me "OMG don't self-publish" I'd be rich off that alone. But nevertheless after getting into it I'm finding that my personal gut instinct was right. Self-pubbing *is* right for me and I can make it work for me.
I may not get rich, but I'm not going to be selling the "average" 100 books either.
All averages like 100 self-pubbed copies sold, or $300 a month at DS tells me is that most people are fairly mediocre and it doesn't take that much to rise above what the "average" person is doing.
And that may be harsh. Not trying to be a *B* about it, but I think people sell themselves way short when they assume because the average of something is low, that that means they somehow can't do better. Most people are pretty lazy and unmotivated in the grand scheme of things, if they weren't, averages wouldn't be so low for these things. Because I just don't think most people are that stupid or untalented. So lazy or unmotivated is about the only option left.
Having said that there are likely "some" DS writers who just never get the hang of it and can't write them that fast, and they generally drift off. Very few people are going to write an article for $15 if it takes them all day to do it.
And I would say that probably that $300/month average "is" likely skewed by the people who turn in very few articles, for whatever reason. My guess isn't that it took them backbreaking hours to write one article. I'd guess they aren't self-motivated, or they didn't find many articles that "they personally" either could or wanted to write, or they just only need a tiny bit of money per month for whatever reason and DS is filling in those gaps.
I could make more than I make at DS. I just don't "need" to, so I don't do the work required. Before it got to "sweatshop level" for me, I could probably earn $450 a week, I'm just not that motivated by Demand Studios. I do what I need to do and get out, so I can devote the rest of my time to projects more personally meaningful to me.
But anyway I think anyone who WANTS or NEEDS to make some money at DS is most likely going to make more than $300 a month. That's 5 articles a week, or roughly 5 hours a week.
Anyway, I do admit that it's a little irksome when people talk about what "the average person" can do. This isn't anything against Carol, but just the general tendency toward doing this. Because that doesn't tell you what YOU can do. If I had a nickel for every person who told me "OMG don't self-publish" I'd be rich off that alone. But nevertheless after getting into it I'm finding that my personal gut instinct was right. Self-pubbing *is* right for me and I can make it work for me.
I may not get rich, but I'm not going to be selling the "average" 100 books either.
All averages like 100 self-pubbed copies sold, or $300 a month at DS tells me is that most people are fairly mediocre and it doesn't take that much to rise above what the "average" person is doing.
And that may be harsh. Not trying to be a *B* about it, but I think people sell themselves way short when they assume because the average of something is low, that that means they somehow can't do better. Most people are pretty lazy and unmotivated in the grand scheme of things, if they weren't, averages wouldn't be so low for these things. Because I just don't think most people are that stupid or untalented. So lazy or unmotivated is about the only option left.
And sorry for being so verbose, that's one of *MY* major personality flaws. :P
Hey, we all have our issues.
Hey, we all have our issues.
Hey Carol,
I read that article you just linked to and it sounds like someone who has never written for a content mill. Because if all I was writing at DS were "articles I wanted to write" I'd be writing very little. Sure, I select my articles, but when there aren't articles in my niche, then I pick the least painful articles to write, not necessarily the stuff I want to write.
I also don't particularly care for her tone and assumption that anyone writing for a content mill is just a 'play pretend writer' and somehow isn't a 'real writer' because they aren't suffering enough. (i.e. writing stuff they don't want to write like real writers.)
What is "that" about? And maybe it's the area of the country I'm in and the fact that I'm married and don't have nor do I plan to ever have children, but $300 a week isn't something to sneeze at where I'm from. It's good second income. It's better than I'd make working full time at ANY McJob in my area.
I read that article you just linked to and it sounds like someone who has never written for a content mill. Because if all I was writing at DS were "articles I wanted to write" I'd be writing very little. Sure, I select my articles, but when there aren't articles in my niche, then I pick the least painful articles to write, not necessarily the stuff I want to write.
I also don't particularly care for her tone and assumption that anyone writing for a content mill is just a 'play pretend writer' and somehow isn't a 'real writer' because they aren't suffering enough. (i.e. writing stuff they don't want to write like real writers.)
What is "that" about? And maybe it's the area of the country I'm in and the fact that I'm married and don't have nor do I plan to ever have children, but $300 a week isn't something to sneeze at where I'm from. It's good second income. It's better than I'd make working full time at ANY McJob in my area.
Maybe that's why Demand tells us most make $300 a month...they're only writing what they want.
Expressing joy that I don't live wherever you are, Zoe, where under $15,000 a year would be a considered a great second income. I've got three kids, two are special needs-y, we live in a highly desirable market, and my husband is still finding himself. My audience I think is primarily people more like me, who are seriously trying to full-time support themselves with their writing.
Not that I'm against your making that little if it makes you happy. If so, I think it's grand. My mission around here at Make a Living is to help writers do that.
I'm teaching people how to aim for $100K in earnings, so one of the reasons I steer people away from content-mill relationships is that it's apparent that even the stars on the sites don't make that much. There's just so much better earning potential elsewhere.
But if writing for Demand or whoever is giving you all the income you need, then superb.
Carol
Expressing joy that I don't live wherever you are, Zoe, where under $15,000 a year would be a considered a great second income. I've got three kids, two are special needs-y, we live in a highly desirable market, and my husband is still finding himself. My audience I think is primarily people more like me, who are seriously trying to full-time support themselves with their writing.
Not that I'm against your making that little if it makes you happy. If so, I think it's grand. My mission around here at Make a Living is to help writers do that.
I'm teaching people how to aim for $100K in earnings, so one of the reasons I steer people away from content-mill relationships is that it's apparent that even the stars on the sites don't make that much. There's just so much better earning potential elsewhere.
But if writing for Demand or whoever is giving you all the income you need, then superb.
Carol
Hey Carol,
LOL I don't live in a "poor" place, I just live in a place where the cost of living is very low. There are a lot of very wealthy and upper middle class people here, and it's probably cause the cost of living is low enough here for you to actually get ahead.
I intend to eventually full-time support myself through writing, just not freelance article writing. What I'm making right now is what I "need" to keep moving forward. I'd "like" to make more, but wasting my time just to "make more" doing something I don't absolutely love that isn't building a larger future for me, is stupid. Since I'm fortunate enough to not need a giant amount of money, it frees up more time. Because some day I would like to MAKE a giant amount of money, it's just that things take time.
And yeah the stars like the mega earners are still lucky to make 50k a year. Of course in MY area of the country, that's great money, lol. Other people's mileage obviously varies. I'm just glad I don't live somewhere more expensive where there is so much pressure to make a certain amount just to scrape by.
LOL I don't live in a "poor" place, I just live in a place where the cost of living is very low. There are a lot of very wealthy and upper middle class people here, and it's probably cause the cost of living is low enough here for you to actually get ahead.
I intend to eventually full-time support myself through writing, just not freelance article writing. What I'm making right now is what I "need" to keep moving forward. I'd "like" to make more, but wasting my time just to "make more" doing something I don't absolutely love that isn't building a larger future for me, is stupid. Since I'm fortunate enough to not need a giant amount of money, it frees up more time. Because some day I would like to MAKE a giant amount of money, it's just that things take time.
And yeah the stars like the mega earners are still lucky to make 50k a year. Of course in MY area of the country, that's great money, lol. Other people's mileage obviously varies. I'm just glad I don't live somewhere more expensive where there is so much pressure to make a certain amount just to scrape by.
I'm currently tossing Demand Studios in with 2 other content writing sites for an experiment. I'm wrapping up week 2 of the experiment tomorrow. Average hourly rate so far? 60 USD per hour. Don't believe me? The daily journals are up on my site, and I'll be posting the PayPal receipts at the end of the experiment.
Ironically enough, if I were using solely Demand Studios I would be clearing above 75 dollars an hour. The next writing experiment I'm doing will be in March or April, and will be focusing solely on using Demand Studios.
I'm with the side of the fence who says that anyone who can't walk into Demand Studios and make a minimum of 50 dollars an hour doesn't know what they are doing, or how to utilize disposable content. This isn't meant to be heavily-researched prose, folks...it's fast, 300-400 word blurbs that you crank out.
Sweat shop labor, please! That made me laugh so hard I nearly vomited :) I can plop down at my computer and work a mere 3-4 hours a day and make 50k a year without ever even breaking a sweat, making a phone call, querying, or dealing with administrative tasks. If I want to make 80k a year I simply bump it up to 6 hours a day of work. I'm writing about things I enjoy, my hobbies, my passions. I fail to see how this could be the equivalent of work any day of the week :) Maybe for some of you writing is difficult, but I've yet to find myself challenged in any way, shape, or form by this job.
I work for traditional clients as well, but I definitely use content sites to my advantage. Just like Richard Branson doesn't just dabble in airlines...he also has trains, cell phones, music labels, a space program, and many, many other irons in the fire. I love content sites for the fast, super-easy cash they can generate. 60-75 bucks an hour for zero administrative efforts? Sign up me!
Ironically enough, if I were using solely Demand Studios I would be clearing above 75 dollars an hour. The next writing experiment I'm doing will be in March or April, and will be focusing solely on using Demand Studios.
I'm with the side of the fence who says that anyone who can't walk into Demand Studios and make a minimum of 50 dollars an hour doesn't know what they are doing, or how to utilize disposable content. This isn't meant to be heavily-researched prose, folks...it's fast, 300-400 word blurbs that you crank out.
Sweat shop labor, please! That made me laugh so hard I nearly vomited :) I can plop down at my computer and work a mere 3-4 hours a day and make 50k a year without ever even breaking a sweat, making a phone call, querying, or dealing with administrative tasks. If I want to make 80k a year I simply bump it up to 6 hours a day of work. I'm writing about things I enjoy, my hobbies, my passions. I fail to see how this could be the equivalent of work any day of the week :) Maybe for some of you writing is difficult, but I've yet to find myself challenged in any way, shape, or form by this job.
I work for traditional clients as well, but I definitely use content sites to my advantage. Just like Richard Branson doesn't just dabble in airlines...he also has trains, cell phones, music labels, a space program, and many, many other irons in the fire. I love content sites for the fast, super-easy cash they can generate. 60-75 bucks an hour for zero administrative efforts? Sign up me!
We've been over this before, T.W....but we do think you're an exceptional guy. Not typical of what most new writers can earn on these sites...including by Demand's own executive's estimation.
It is absolutely typical, as long as you don't try and skew the data with flawed journalism (read Carsons last post. Specifically read the part about, "That, in my mind, involves more than a "there are exceptions to the rule I'm trumpeting" post in the archives. It requires placing various options in multiple contexts to understand their potential or lack of potential. Alternatively, it requires a disclaimer of some sort that explains that those options just don't fit with the particular model you advocate--leaving the door open for different perspectives.")
I read the exec's post a few days ago. The average writer is making between 15 and 30 dollars an hour using Demand Studios. If you look at the data I'm presenting on my site, even I agree that IF you go into Demand Studios and are working on articles that require you to research them then you can slow down considerably. But even IF you are only writing 1 article per hour you are still earning 15 dollars an hour. That's double minimum wage. For MANY people that is a massive step up from their previous occupation.
The next step up is the 30 dollar an hour earning. Would you like me to list the types of jobs where individuals make 30 dollars an hour? You seem like an intelligent person, so I don't think I need to do that research for you. 30 dollars an hour is NOT a poor wage. In fact, it is close to 10 dollars an hour MORE than the national average. There are a great many Americans out there who don't even come close to making 30 dollars an hour. Sneering down your nose at the wage is indicative of a lack of understanding the types of respectable jobs that earn 30 dollars an hour, or around there.
30 dollars an hour is around 58,000 USD a year. That's middle management wages without ever having to step foot outside of your house. Without ever having to have a college degree. Without ever having to cold call, query, wait on replies, or deal with e-mails or administrative tasks.
The Average American (you know, the ones making 41k a year according to the Social Security's main website) would be happier than a pig in poo to make 58k a year.
Your arguments against content sites are severely flawed. You like to take the lowest numbers and trumpet them as evidence of the system being broken, but you aren't looking at the bigger picture.
Having been one of the people who uses Demand Studios regularly, and frequents their forums, I can say that most of the people I have seen fall into the "2 articles per hour" category. If you browse their forums any day of the week, these are the type of people you come across who are regularly using Demand Studios. They are walking in with a fairly decent niche or two, and making 30 bucks an hour. Nothing to sneeze at.
There are also those who know how to make content sites work to their advantage. I'm one of those. Do I use content sites full time? Nope. Have I thought about it. Yep. Why don't I? For the same reason I mentioned in my previous post...I have my fingers in a lot of different pies, and content sites are one of those pies. For example, I just financed a spec-fic magazine, my wife and I are having a meeting later this week about investing in a cosmetology clinic, she is about to start a new business venture with her family's company, we are looking at buying property later in the year, financing a new construction company, and possibly financing the building of one of the new stores for her family's chain of business. Not to mention I have a meeting tonight with a literary agency to see about a partnership with some of the local writers in Bulgaria. The point is...whether or not a person chooses to write for a content full time or part time or just periodically, it doesn't really matter. It's their choice, their wage, their life.
While new writers may need guidance from time to time, they need it given by someone with a level head, someone with no agenda, someone who can show them ALL the paths to success, not set them down in their own dust-trail and dictate, "My way is the ONLY way!"
My own experiment, for example, specifically takes a look at what it takes to make a minimum of 50 dollars an hour writing for content sites, one of them being Demand Studios. I specifically slowed myself down, and I am specifically writing at a pace that the "average" writer can easily perform at. Do most of the writers at Demand Studios make 50 dollars an hour? Nope. Why? Because they haven't learned how to use the system to their advantage yet, and with people like you continually clamoring that it's "impossible", and that writers like myself are the "exception", it's extremely difficult to get the message out.
Perhaps one of these days you'll wisen up and realize there are more paths to success than just your own, and you'll start appreciating the merits of other writers having the right to their own decisions, and their own paths to success. I look forward to the day when I can read one of your articles and remark to myself, "Now THAT was some truly unbiased investigative journalism."
I read the exec's post a few days ago. The average writer is making between 15 and 30 dollars an hour using Demand Studios. If you look at the data I'm presenting on my site, even I agree that IF you go into Demand Studios and are working on articles that require you to research them then you can slow down considerably. But even IF you are only writing 1 article per hour you are still earning 15 dollars an hour. That's double minimum wage. For MANY people that is a massive step up from their previous occupation.
The next step up is the 30 dollar an hour earning. Would you like me to list the types of jobs where individuals make 30 dollars an hour? You seem like an intelligent person, so I don't think I need to do that research for you. 30 dollars an hour is NOT a poor wage. In fact, it is close to 10 dollars an hour MORE than the national average. There are a great many Americans out there who don't even come close to making 30 dollars an hour. Sneering down your nose at the wage is indicative of a lack of understanding the types of respectable jobs that earn 30 dollars an hour, or around there.
30 dollars an hour is around 58,000 USD a year. That's middle management wages without ever having to step foot outside of your house. Without ever having to have a college degree. Without ever having to cold call, query, wait on replies, or deal with e-mails or administrative tasks.
The Average American (you know, the ones making 41k a year according to the Social Security's main website) would be happier than a pig in poo to make 58k a year.
Your arguments against content sites are severely flawed. You like to take the lowest numbers and trumpet them as evidence of the system being broken, but you aren't looking at the bigger picture.
Having been one of the people who uses Demand Studios regularly, and frequents their forums, I can say that most of the people I have seen fall into the "2 articles per hour" category. If you browse their forums any day of the week, these are the type of people you come across who are regularly using Demand Studios. They are walking in with a fairly decent niche or two, and making 30 bucks an hour. Nothing to sneeze at.
There are also those who know how to make content sites work to their advantage. I'm one of those. Do I use content sites full time? Nope. Have I thought about it. Yep. Why don't I? For the same reason I mentioned in my previous post...I have my fingers in a lot of different pies, and content sites are one of those pies. For example, I just financed a spec-fic magazine, my wife and I are having a meeting later this week about investing in a cosmetology clinic, she is about to start a new business venture with her family's company, we are looking at buying property later in the year, financing a new construction company, and possibly financing the building of one of the new stores for her family's chain of business. Not to mention I have a meeting tonight with a literary agency to see about a partnership with some of the local writers in Bulgaria. The point is...whether or not a person chooses to write for a content full time or part time or just periodically, it doesn't really matter. It's their choice, their wage, their life.
While new writers may need guidance from time to time, they need it given by someone with a level head, someone with no agenda, someone who can show them ALL the paths to success, not set them down in their own dust-trail and dictate, "My way is the ONLY way!"
My own experiment, for example, specifically takes a look at what it takes to make a minimum of 50 dollars an hour writing for content sites, one of them being Demand Studios. I specifically slowed myself down, and I am specifically writing at a pace that the "average" writer can easily perform at. Do most of the writers at Demand Studios make 50 dollars an hour? Nope. Why? Because they haven't learned how to use the system to their advantage yet, and with people like you continually clamoring that it's "impossible", and that writers like myself are the "exception", it's extremely difficult to get the message out.
Perhaps one of these days you'll wisen up and realize there are more paths to success than just your own, and you'll start appreciating the merits of other writers having the right to their own decisions, and their own paths to success. I look forward to the day when I can read one of your articles and remark to myself, "Now THAT was some truly unbiased investigative journalism."
Aah...I feel better now. It's just not a discussion about content mills without one of your filibuster-rants, T.W.
I would have got back sooner but I was busy filing an $800 article that didn't take me 8 hours to write...
Carol
I would have got back sooner but I was busy filing an $800 article that didn't take me 8 hours to write...
Carol
"You create a comparison between 15 pieces of DS material and 15 of your well-written, high-quality freelance pieces. That's not a fair comparison in terms of time, effort, required skills, etc."
Love ya to bits and all Carson, but that quote demonstrates a common misconception on your end too. Who's to say Carol's articles take more time or effort to write without asking before judging? I'm not saying they don't -- I know where she writes so I'm sure they do. But it seemed a bit off-based coming from you without clarifying first since you were making similar accusations. However, I can indeed tell you that there's plenty of writing work out there paying far better than DS rates, and without requiring a huge time investment. I write articles for one client's blog in about 20-30 minutes a piece, and I earn $150 per hour on the low end -- no more time than what's needed for DS writing, and no editors to deal with who don't understand the subject matter for the pieces they're editing. I have other blogging clients where I spend no more than an hour per post (longer than those for the previous client), and I still earn the $150 per hour minimum rate based on what I charge them. It's about knowing what you want to earn, setting your rates for different types of projects accordingly, and finding clients who can pay them.
There's a lot of talk out there about how getting paid more than $15 per article means you're spending hours to weeks on an article, and that simply isn't true. We're not talking basic Web content vs magazine writing in many of these cases -- we're talking Web content vs Web content, and differences in pay based on the type of client.
In the end, there's nothing wrong with content mills for writers looking to earn a bit of extra money (it's probably great for hobby writers). The problem is when these companies do things like suck writers in with unrealistic promises or half-assed information, brag about exceptions as though they're the rule, or make vague claims regarding rates (per piece or hourly).
Those wanting to make a real career out of it can do better. There is no question about that. The only question is whether or not they're willing to put in the effort or not. Some prefer the easier way with things handed to them, and they'll work harder in the long run for it. That's fine as long as they understand the options before choosing it.
The problem is that a lot of new writers do not understand the options. They're led to believe that content mills offer the "going rate" and that they have no choice but to settle for them if they want to get started. So while Carol and I don't always agree 100% on everything (nor do you and I), I have to respect that at least she's making some of those newer writers aware that they don't have to settle for less than they want to earn just to kick off their freelance writing career.
I don't read the blog in question, but frankly who cares if DS is willing to be interviewed by someone they sponsor? When they're ready to answer the hard questions with hard numbers and without the hype, and with someone with absolutely no vested interest in them looking peachy, then it'll be something to talk about. But there's been very little simple honesty coming from DS over the last few months. The sad thing is that they seem to be hurting content sites as a whole with their constant image gaffs rather than helping even their own case, from posting info abt their insurance to attract writers that blatantly contradicted the actual insurance documents to saying they're not trying to be journalistic while their ads proceed to target journalists, it's all been one big joke.
Love ya to bits and all Carson, but that quote demonstrates a common misconception on your end too. Who's to say Carol's articles take more time or effort to write without asking before judging? I'm not saying they don't -- I know where she writes so I'm sure they do. But it seemed a bit off-based coming from you without clarifying first since you were making similar accusations. However, I can indeed tell you that there's plenty of writing work out there paying far better than DS rates, and without requiring a huge time investment. I write articles for one client's blog in about 20-30 minutes a piece, and I earn $150 per hour on the low end -- no more time than what's needed for DS writing, and no editors to deal with who don't understand the subject matter for the pieces they're editing. I have other blogging clients where I spend no more than an hour per post (longer than those for the previous client), and I still earn the $150 per hour minimum rate based on what I charge them. It's about knowing what you want to earn, setting your rates for different types of projects accordingly, and finding clients who can pay them.
There's a lot of talk out there about how getting paid more than $15 per article means you're spending hours to weeks on an article, and that simply isn't true. We're not talking basic Web content vs magazine writing in many of these cases -- we're talking Web content vs Web content, and differences in pay based on the type of client.
In the end, there's nothing wrong with content mills for writers looking to earn a bit of extra money (it's probably great for hobby writers). The problem is when these companies do things like suck writers in with unrealistic promises or half-assed information, brag about exceptions as though they're the rule, or make vague claims regarding rates (per piece or hourly).
Those wanting to make a real career out of it can do better. There is no question about that. The only question is whether or not they're willing to put in the effort or not. Some prefer the easier way with things handed to them, and they'll work harder in the long run for it. That's fine as long as they understand the options before choosing it.
The problem is that a lot of new writers do not understand the options. They're led to believe that content mills offer the "going rate" and that they have no choice but to settle for them if they want to get started. So while Carol and I don't always agree 100% on everything (nor do you and I), I have to respect that at least she's making some of those newer writers aware that they don't have to settle for less than they want to earn just to kick off their freelance writing career.
I don't read the blog in question, but frankly who cares if DS is willing to be interviewed by someone they sponsor? When they're ready to answer the hard questions with hard numbers and without the hype, and with someone with absolutely no vested interest in them looking peachy, then it'll be something to talk about. But there's been very little simple honesty coming from DS over the last few months. The sad thing is that they seem to be hurting content sites as a whole with their constant image gaffs rather than helping even their own case, from posting info abt their insurance to attract writers that blatantly contradicted the actual insurance documents to saying they're not trying to be journalistic while their ads proceed to target journalists, it's all been one big joke.
Thanks for great perspective on this issue, Jenn. I wasn't going to get into the whole issue of a Demand-sponsored site interviewing Demand...but probably should be aired.
I think I should probably write a blog about high-paying articles and how long they take. I also have blogs and article clients where it pays $100 and takes an hour or less. And that is the main point -- to educate writers about the whole range of what's out there, so they don't think content mill rates are the ONLY rates.
There's a bottom line for me that if you're writing for somewhere where you can never get a raise and you can't upsell them more lucrative assignments...it just can't be the best place to be.
Carol
I think I should probably write a blog about high-paying articles and how long they take. I also have blogs and article clients where it pays $100 and takes an hour or less. And that is the main point -- to educate writers about the whole range of what's out there, so they don't think content mill rates are the ONLY rates.
There's a bottom line for me that if you're writing for somewhere where you can never get a raise and you can't upsell them more lucrative assignments...it just can't be the best place to be.
Carol
To be fair, Carol, the interview with Jeremy Reed was part three of a series interviewing content site people. Before Jeremy, I interviewed editors from Suite 101 and Hub Pages - neither of them pay me. I asked Jeremy the same questions as I asked the other sites, with the exception of one - I also asked Jeremy if he wanted to address any of the recent bad publicity. I also requested interviews from the people behind ten other content sites - and yes, sent them all the same exact questions. None of them pay me either. I can tell you not all who were interviewed so far wanted to answer the questions about pay.
I don't mind being dismissed as a paid mouthpiece, but you should know that no where in my contract does it say for me to go to writing blogs and forums to defend Demands Studios, nor does it say I should do interview with their execs. I do that on my own because I like them. They never asked.
It should also be noted that I'm more than a paid mouthpiece for a content site. I'm someone who successfully wrote for content sites for 8 or ten years - long before my relationship with Demand Studios.
As a content site writer I knew there were high paying opportunities and I found them.I also supplemented (and still supplement) my income from content sites. Also, my clips from content sites helped to land many of those high paying opportunities. So when someone says it can't be done, I'm happy to counter than it absolutely can.
Again, I realize that anything i post will be dismissed, by you and others, and that's OK. I wouldn't even have commented if I wasn't referenced in the comments above.
I don't mind being dismissed as a paid mouthpiece, but you should know that no where in my contract does it say for me to go to writing blogs and forums to defend Demands Studios, nor does it say I should do interview with their execs. I do that on my own because I like them. They never asked.
It should also be noted that I'm more than a paid mouthpiece for a content site. I'm someone who successfully wrote for content sites for 8 or ten years - long before my relationship with Demand Studios.
As a content site writer I knew there were high paying opportunities and I found them.I also supplemented (and still supplement) my income from content sites. Also, my clips from content sites helped to land many of those high paying opportunities. So when someone says it can't be done, I'm happy to counter than it absolutely can.
Again, I realize that anything i post will be dismissed, by you and others, and that's OK. I wouldn't even have commented if I wasn't referenced in the comments above.
Also,I want to address this:
"There's a bottom line for me that if you're writing for somewhere where you can never get a raise and you can't upsell them more lucrative assignments...it just can't be the best place to be."
Demand Studios does advertise and offer other more lucrative opportunities to trusted writers. They've also raised rates on more than one occasion.
"There's a bottom line for me that if you're writing for somewhere where you can never get a raise and you can't upsell them more lucrative assignments...it just can't be the best place to be."
Demand Studios does advertise and offer other more lucrative opportunities to trusted writers. They've also raised rates on more than one occasion.
Hi Deb --
I'm sorry you feel dissed, Deb, but it wasn't by me -- if you read my original post you'll see I didn't mention your relationship to Demand at all. That was Jenn. I thought it ultimately wasn't relevant to his response. I also referred to Demand as the Cadillac of content mills...and admire their honesty for being among the first to give any sort of an earnings figure.
I'm just here publicizing what you did. Reactions are those of the posters.
I'm amazed at the heat I can generate by simply noticing and publicizing a pay figure offered by a content mill. I just want writers who may not be familiar with this world to have a realistic sense of what earnings may be like. Obviously, like the cars, your mileage may vary -- yes, yours does, T.W. -- but I think it's a useful yardstick figure.
I'd never dismiss you, Deb. I think your blog's great and I read it often. I respect your point of view -- and I'll thank others who'll respect mine, that there are better ways to go about building a high-paying writing career than writing for content sites.
T.W.'s always accusing me of saying there's only one way to do writing...but there certainly are many ways to build a career. I mentor writers to try to show them the fastest route to higher pay. I don't happen to think content mills is it. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Now gotta go -- another $1500 assignment to get started on.
Carol
I'm sorry you feel dissed, Deb, but it wasn't by me -- if you read my original post you'll see I didn't mention your relationship to Demand at all. That was Jenn. I thought it ultimately wasn't relevant to his response. I also referred to Demand as the Cadillac of content mills...and admire their honesty for being among the first to give any sort of an earnings figure.
I'm just here publicizing what you did. Reactions are those of the posters.
I'm amazed at the heat I can generate by simply noticing and publicizing a pay figure offered by a content mill. I just want writers who may not be familiar with this world to have a realistic sense of what earnings may be like. Obviously, like the cars, your mileage may vary -- yes, yours does, T.W. -- but I think it's a useful yardstick figure.
I'd never dismiss you, Deb. I think your blog's great and I read it often. I respect your point of view -- and I'll thank others who'll respect mine, that there are better ways to go about building a high-paying writing career than writing for content sites.
T.W.'s always accusing me of saying there's only one way to do writing...but there certainly are many ways to build a career. I mentor writers to try to show them the fastest route to higher pay. I don't happen to think content mills is it. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Now gotta go -- another $1500 assignment to get started on.
Carol
Here's where we'll agree, Carol. I believe freelancers need to explore all available opportunities and make informed decisions.
Here's the issue, Carol. Your words, not mine.
"...there certainly are many ways to build a career. I mentor writers to try to show them the fastest route to higher pay. I don't happen to think content mills is it. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it."
That's a paradoxical statement, Carol. You are sending two different messages in the above sentence, each of which cancels out the other.
You blatantly admit that you are only offering evidence from a one-sided point of view. You do not view contents sites as a valid source of income, or a valid path to success. Not my words. Yours. Read them.
"I don't happen to think content mills is it."
You try and preface your arguments with a "But I believe freelance writers should explore all opportunities," and then turn around in your very next sentence and say, "But content mills aren't part of that road to success."
Which is it, Carol? Because right now you keep changing your story to suit your argument of the week.
If you truly believe that there are many ways to build a career (your words, not mine), then you would stop posting anti-content-mill comments on your blog. Right now you are nothing more than a hypocrite with your continual anti-content-mill posts. You claim you want to promote many ways to build a career path in the freelance market, then turn around with your next breath and say "but not with content mills."
You can't have both. You either DO accept many paths to success, or you accept your OWN version of the path to success. Right now the only thing we see coming out of your site is YOUR path to success, and any other person's chosen path is somehow inherently evil, low-paying, exploitative, and wrong.
Get your story straight.
"...there certainly are many ways to build a career. I mentor writers to try to show them the fastest route to higher pay. I don't happen to think content mills is it. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it."
That's a paradoxical statement, Carol. You are sending two different messages in the above sentence, each of which cancels out the other.
You blatantly admit that you are only offering evidence from a one-sided point of view. You do not view contents sites as a valid source of income, or a valid path to success. Not my words. Yours. Read them.
"I don't happen to think content mills is it."
You try and preface your arguments with a "But I believe freelance writers should explore all opportunities," and then turn around in your very next sentence and say, "But content mills aren't part of that road to success."
Which is it, Carol? Because right now you keep changing your story to suit your argument of the week.
If you truly believe that there are many ways to build a career (your words, not mine), then you would stop posting anti-content-mill comments on your blog. Right now you are nothing more than a hypocrite with your continual anti-content-mill posts. You claim you want to promote many ways to build a career path in the freelance market, then turn around with your next breath and say "but not with content mills."
You can't have both. You either DO accept many paths to success, or you accept your OWN version of the path to success. Right now the only thing we see coming out of your site is YOUR path to success, and any other person's chosen path is somehow inherently evil, low-paying, exploitative, and wrong.
Get your story straight.
At the risk of stating the obvious, I believe there are many OTHER ways -- other, BETTER ways -- to build your writing career besides writing for mills. And I get the sense from the many mentees who hire me that I'm far from alone in that view.
I advocate for many possible options for good earnings in pursuing writing -- but just not content mills. The many people who approach me desperate to learn how they can get off the mills and into better-paying work tells me the mills aren't where I should be steering people.
I think what you want is for me to say ALL ways are equally good for building a sustainable, lucrative writing career...but I'm afraid I don't agree. My many conversations with writers who're trying to earn big don't point me to that conclusion. My mission here is to offer new writers some perspective and save them time in their search for good pay -- and I can only call 'em as I see 'em. But it's certainly not hypocritical for me to say there are many ways to earn. I'm certainly seeing great pay from many types of writing these days -- traditional print, online magazine, online corporate, blogging, you name it.
I'm sorry that your favorite way to earn isn't one of mine. I'm certainly happy that it works for you. But you should know the longer you rant, the more we all think your point of view looks less and less defensible. You should see the private emails I get...
But I'll give you an example of why content mills are not on my list of best ways to break into writing. I have one friend who with a single pitch to one editor, got to $1 a word writing for a major corporation his first year trying freelance writing.
He earned nearly a full-time income from writing his first year out, writing as a side gig -- while continuing his full-time global business consulting work! We'll have his story on this blog next week, so stay tuned for an example of what I encourage writers to do.
Until then, enjoy Bulgaria!
I advocate for many possible options for good earnings in pursuing writing -- but just not content mills. The many people who approach me desperate to learn how they can get off the mills and into better-paying work tells me the mills aren't where I should be steering people.
I think what you want is for me to say ALL ways are equally good for building a sustainable, lucrative writing career...but I'm afraid I don't agree. My many conversations with writers who're trying to earn big don't point me to that conclusion. My mission here is to offer new writers some perspective and save them time in their search for good pay -- and I can only call 'em as I see 'em. But it's certainly not hypocritical for me to say there are many ways to earn. I'm certainly seeing great pay from many types of writing these days -- traditional print, online magazine, online corporate, blogging, you name it.
I'm sorry that your favorite way to earn isn't one of mine. I'm certainly happy that it works for you. But you should know the longer you rant, the more we all think your point of view looks less and less defensible. You should see the private emails I get...
But I'll give you an example of why content mills are not on my list of best ways to break into writing. I have one friend who with a single pitch to one editor, got to $1 a word writing for a major corporation his first year trying freelance writing.
He earned nearly a full-time income from writing his first year out, writing as a side gig -- while continuing his full-time global business consulting work! We'll have his story on this blog next week, so stay tuned for an example of what I encourage writers to do.
Until then, enjoy Bulgaria!
I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective on DS (yes, I do write for them, and yes, they cover my admittedly frugal bills).
In freelancing, you will encounter times of feast and famine. Even for the beginner, who is striving to break into the $1 per word markets, there will be a waiting period. If the beginner targets the perfect market on the first time, it could be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months before they get paid, depending on the editor's slush pile, response time, and if they pay on acceptance or publication.
During that time, the writer has bills piling up, and DS offers quick payment to get a writer through until their better paying markets come around. Not ideal by any means, but a worthwhile alternative to impatiently waiting for that large check to arrive.
For me, right now, I need the reliability of their payments to get me through until I land a steady stream of well paying clients. My goal is to replace the time I spend writing for DS with time spent on better writing assignments. If you or others don't need that at this point in your writing careers, great! You are clearly not the right writers for the DS model.
I hope not to offend any of you here, but I truly want to share a different use of DS as a stepping stone for some writers. Thank you.
~Kimberlee
In freelancing, you will encounter times of feast and famine. Even for the beginner, who is striving to break into the $1 per word markets, there will be a waiting period. If the beginner targets the perfect market on the first time, it could be anywhere from a few weeks to a few months before they get paid, depending on the editor's slush pile, response time, and if they pay on acceptance or publication.
During that time, the writer has bills piling up, and DS offers quick payment to get a writer through until their better paying markets come around. Not ideal by any means, but a worthwhile alternative to impatiently waiting for that large check to arrive.
For me, right now, I need the reliability of their payments to get me through until I land a steady stream of well paying clients. My goal is to replace the time I spend writing for DS with time spent on better writing assignments. If you or others don't need that at this point in your writing careers, great! You are clearly not the right writers for the DS model.
I hope not to offend any of you here, but I truly want to share a different use of DS as a stepping stone for some writers. Thank you.
~Kimberlee
Hey Kimberlee,
I totally agree, people talk about how they are trapped in content mills and how they got "sucked in" like they're being held hostage or something. Not really sure how that works. I wish people would stop acting like they are at DS against their will. It's not a hostage situation. It's a gig.
Even if you want to BE a "freelance writer" instead of another type of writer, or another profession altogether, you gotta pay the bills, stuff takes time to build.
I will never understand someone turning their nose up at good money that could help them because it won't "further their writing career."
Well flipping burgers won't further your writing career either, but sometimes you have to take work you don't really want to do in order to pay bills you have to pay. From where I'm sitting, sitting in my house in my PJs, cranking out about 4 articles for DS in a couple of hours, is far preferable to flipping burgers in a greasy pit for 8 hours.
I'm not sure why that's not more widely recognized. Who are these writers who on their first time out they get these awesome gigs? And further who are these writers who have creditors willing to wait until the paychecks actually start coming in?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that "most" freelance writers need some other source of income in the beginning. DS may not meet all your needs so you may have a full-time job. If you have a full-time job and are trying to launch a writing career, obviously DS is just going to waste time that could be better spent.
But in *my* situation... I didn't finish college, I am pretty much unemployable except for McJobs for a host of reasons. It's a waste of *my* time, NOT to write for DS. right now I'm bringing in about $368 a week (most of it DS, a tiny bit not), is this ZOMG BIG MONIES??? No. But it's what I need to:
A. pay the few bills I have
B. save some
C. allow me to focus most of my time on more important projects with long-term future payoff potential.
To get that kind of money at any job I could actually get hired for in my area, I'd be working 40 hours a week instead of 14. The math isn't hard for me.
And while I do respect what Carol is saying and trying to do, and agree that T.W. though highly motivated and clearly talented, is just kind of obnoxious and now I know how I came off in certain online discussions in the past... I do feel that there is a complete ignoring of those people who are NOT able to make a lot of money for whatever reason in a traditional setting.
There really are people in this country who work VERY hard full-time and make $8 an hour. Not everyone can afford the same standard of living. Give someone like that an opportunity to make $15-$30 an hour and they will jump for it. They won't be saying: "Demand Studios? That's not real writing." They don't care. They have real bills to pay and no time for validation.
I totally agree, people talk about how they are trapped in content mills and how they got "sucked in" like they're being held hostage or something. Not really sure how that works. I wish people would stop acting like they are at DS against their will. It's not a hostage situation. It's a gig.
Even if you want to BE a "freelance writer" instead of another type of writer, or another profession altogether, you gotta pay the bills, stuff takes time to build.
I will never understand someone turning their nose up at good money that could help them because it won't "further their writing career."
Well flipping burgers won't further your writing career either, but sometimes you have to take work you don't really want to do in order to pay bills you have to pay. From where I'm sitting, sitting in my house in my PJs, cranking out about 4 articles for DS in a couple of hours, is far preferable to flipping burgers in a greasy pit for 8 hours.
I'm not sure why that's not more widely recognized. Who are these writers who on their first time out they get these awesome gigs? And further who are these writers who have creditors willing to wait until the paychecks actually start coming in?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that "most" freelance writers need some other source of income in the beginning. DS may not meet all your needs so you may have a full-time job. If you have a full-time job and are trying to launch a writing career, obviously DS is just going to waste time that could be better spent.
But in *my* situation... I didn't finish college, I am pretty much unemployable except for McJobs for a host of reasons. It's a waste of *my* time, NOT to write for DS. right now I'm bringing in about $368 a week (most of it DS, a tiny bit not), is this ZOMG BIG MONIES??? No. But it's what I need to:
A. pay the few bills I have
B. save some
C. allow me to focus most of my time on more important projects with long-term future payoff potential.
To get that kind of money at any job I could actually get hired for in my area, I'd be working 40 hours a week instead of 14. The math isn't hard for me.
And while I do respect what Carol is saying and trying to do, and agree that T.W. though highly motivated and clearly talented, is just kind of obnoxious and now I know how I came off in certain online discussions in the past... I do feel that there is a complete ignoring of those people who are NOT able to make a lot of money for whatever reason in a traditional setting.
There really are people in this country who work VERY hard full-time and make $8 an hour. Not everyone can afford the same standard of living. Give someone like that an opportunity to make $15-$30 an hour and they will jump for it. They won't be saying: "Demand Studios? That's not real writing." They don't care. They have real bills to pay and no time for validation.
Carol said. "I have one friend who with a single pitch to one editor, got to $1 a word writing for a major corporation his first year trying freelance writing."
Yes, we all have that ONE friend. I have one friend whose first demo record was accepted by a major studio, and a couple whose first novel was accepted by a major publisher. That's the exception, not the rule. How many friends do you have who submitted to dozens of outlets before they got one "yes"?
I like the so-called "content mills" because I write fast, research fast, and don't have to do the the schmoozing and queries and other crap that comes with your kind of freelancing.
Yes, we all have that ONE friend. I have one friend whose first demo record was accepted by a major studio, and a couple whose first novel was accepted by a major publisher. That's the exception, not the rule. How many friends do you have who submitted to dozens of outlets before they got one "yes"?
I like the so-called "content mills" because I write fast, research fast, and don't have to do the the schmoozing and queries and other crap that comes with your kind of freelancing.
Lots of interesting perspectives flowing in during my Sabbath off, I see.
Tsu Dho Nimh, I think you're one of my five kinds of people who should write for content mills, if you saw that post on About Freelance Writing -- people who don't want to market their business. If schmoozing or writing a strong query letter is your idea of hell, Demand is a great option for you. You just won't wake up one day and find you're making $100,000 a year or anything with DS. Guess that's the point I want to leave people with -- writing for clients like these limits how much you can possibly make. Out in the world beyond mills, your earning potential as a writer is pretty much unlimited.
And by the way, I have more than one friend like that, who earned well fairly quickly. I'll be offering many success stories of other paths to good pay faster as the months go on in 2010.
And I'm a college dropout too, Zoe. That's only a barrier to good writing assignments if you think it is.
Certainly, making an extra couple hundred bucks a week on DS while you look for better-paying clients is better than simply starving, or possibly having to take a scut job that sucks up even more of your free time than writing for DS would.
The key phrase there is while you look for better clients. I find that in reality, many DS writers don't end up with the energy to do that when they're cranking out DS content.
One golden rule of freelance writing that's in my upcoming e-book on breaking into freelancing that's good to bear in mind here: writing work of one kind tends to lead to writing work of the same kind. So writing for mills tends to lead to more work like that. At some point, you have to do better quality, more closely edited and fact-checked work for more respected markets to move up the pay scale.
We've all got to pay our bills. My focus is on helping people move beyond subsisting from their writing, and break through to really earning well.
Where I live, I sometimes take a ferry into a dock that's near where a lot of Alaska cruise ships dock. After a couple years of freelancing, I set a goal of taking my family on one of those cruises by landing one new, great-paying major client. In 2007, I did it. So that's what I'm speaking to -- I'm here to help people learn how to have the money to really enjoy life, through their writing. Without having to move to Bulgaria to cut expenses.
Tune in Monday to meet Sam Thacker, one of my success stories who points the way to another path to earning well quickly.
I think I'm going to need to do a post or two about pain-free marketing that helps you move up. It really isn't the endlessly time-sucking slog that it's made out to be, when done right.
Carol
Tsu Dho Nimh, I think you're one of my five kinds of people who should write for content mills, if you saw that post on About Freelance Writing -- people who don't want to market their business. If schmoozing or writing a strong query letter is your idea of hell, Demand is a great option for you. You just won't wake up one day and find you're making $100,000 a year or anything with DS. Guess that's the point I want to leave people with -- writing for clients like these limits how much you can possibly make. Out in the world beyond mills, your earning potential as a writer is pretty much unlimited.
And by the way, I have more than one friend like that, who earned well fairly quickly. I'll be offering many success stories of other paths to good pay faster as the months go on in 2010.
And I'm a college dropout too, Zoe. That's only a barrier to good writing assignments if you think it is.
Certainly, making an extra couple hundred bucks a week on DS while you look for better-paying clients is better than simply starving, or possibly having to take a scut job that sucks up even more of your free time than writing for DS would.
The key phrase there is while you look for better clients. I find that in reality, many DS writers don't end up with the energy to do that when they're cranking out DS content.
One golden rule of freelance writing that's in my upcoming e-book on breaking into freelancing that's good to bear in mind here: writing work of one kind tends to lead to writing work of the same kind. So writing for mills tends to lead to more work like that. At some point, you have to do better quality, more closely edited and fact-checked work for more respected markets to move up the pay scale.
We've all got to pay our bills. My focus is on helping people move beyond subsisting from their writing, and break through to really earning well.
Where I live, I sometimes take a ferry into a dock that's near where a lot of Alaska cruise ships dock. After a couple years of freelancing, I set a goal of taking my family on one of those cruises by landing one new, great-paying major client. In 2007, I did it. So that's what I'm speaking to -- I'm here to help people learn how to have the money to really enjoy life, through their writing. Without having to move to Bulgaria to cut expenses.
Tune in Monday to meet Sam Thacker, one of my success stories who points the way to another path to earning well quickly.
I think I'm going to need to do a post or two about pain-free marketing that helps you move up. It really isn't the endlessly time-sucking slog that it's made out to be, when done right.
Carol
"I'm hoping all the writers for Demand who're earning less than this quoted hourly rate will drop us a comment down below...because what I hear from my writers, the ones I mentor, is that they're often lucky to end up earning $15 an hour."
Then you need to start talking to different people. Me and many other people, as you've seen in these comments but continue to write off, make well over $300 a month at DS.
And by the way, putting down these so-called content mills only furthers the divide between online writers and the writers who exclusively write for print publications. It's the reason why online writers often had difficulty transitioning to print. It's also why they hate the so-called writing experts who only think print is the way to big money, often while they advertise their writing courses or mentoring services for hundreds of dollars, sludging up their own "expert" blog to promote their services so they can gain more money.
Give me an experienced freelance writer who speaks highly of online writing jobs and how to get into print for free, and I'll gladly take that over another expert blog whose only purpose is to bolster his/her ego in an attempt to make more money and e-cred.
Then you need to start talking to different people. Me and many other people, as you've seen in these comments but continue to write off, make well over $300 a month at DS.
And by the way, putting down these so-called content mills only furthers the divide between online writers and the writers who exclusively write for print publications. It's the reason why online writers often had difficulty transitioning to print. It's also why they hate the so-called writing experts who only think print is the way to big money, often while they advertise their writing courses or mentoring services for hundreds of dollars, sludging up their own "expert" blog to promote their services so they can gain more money.
Give me an experienced freelance writer who speaks highly of online writing jobs and how to get into print for free, and I'll gladly take that over another expert blog whose only purpose is to bolster his/her ego in an attempt to make more money and e-cred.
Carol,
Oh I'm not talking about barriers to writing assignments. I know I could write anywhere I wanted to if I worked hard enough to do that. I do not WANT to be a freelance writer. I just am not interested. When I was talking about my employability (is that a word?), I mean JOBS like traditional 9-5 jobs. Not anything contractor-based or self-employed.
I do not believe I am destined to be poor and put upon because I didn't finish college. I think it's an advantage for me because it's shaken me out of complacency and going after the "normal" goals in life, which leads most to cubicleville.
Having said that though, I think saying DS isn't going to lead to $100,000 a year is VERY short-sighted and linear thinking. In fact I would almost venture to say it's "cubicleville" thinking.
I can guarantee you that within the next 10 years I will be making 100k a year. I do not think in terms of "one job" and "one gig." I think in terms of multiple profit centers. Different income streams, different projects. Building passive income streams so you do the work once and get paid forever. (And I know there were a bunch of sentence fragments there.)
Demand Studios is "not" that kind of income stream, BUT it takes all types of income streams to get your little snowball rolling down the hill and building up steam. DS is money. DS is more money made quicker than I could make in anything else I'm qualified to do.
Now sure I could become a "freelance writer" and submit to editors and all that crap but I do not WANT to do that. Maybe you could put me in the category of people who don't want to market their writing, but that's too simplistic too. I don't want to market THAT kind of writing, because it simply doesn't interest me.
The kind of writing I want to market? I want to market my fiction, I want to market my infoproducts I'm working on, I want to market websites I'm building and writing all the content for and monetizing. And then I have a few income streams down the line as some of these get going that will be a little different and focus on other passions and interests of mine.
The bottom line is, I really don't like working for other people. And freelance writing to me is a step between self-employment and traditional employment that doesn't truly satisfy me.
So that's the thing. With fast enough writing, I can use DS to fund starting other projects and moving those projects forward. Someday I will make $100k and then I'll make more. (and no, most of that won't be from fiction, but again, I have MULTIPLE streams I'm building), but it will have started out with Demand Studios and would have been much harder without it.
As for my per hour rate with DS, I'm getting faster and as I'm learning the little tricks I'm making $20-$30 an hour now. I get the writing I need to get done in 2 or 3 hours on DS a day Monday-Friday. I'm fortunate in that I do not have to work a full time. It does not exhaust me or take up all my energy, it finances my other projects that will move me ahead.
Freelance writing would be a waste of time for me because it would take too much time and energy focusing on something I don't want to do. THEN the situation would be, I would be busy chasing after freelance writing assignments and wouldn't have the energy to follow my real dreams both writing and otherwise.
I understand what you're trying to do and that your heart is in the right place, Carol. However, there is some danger in putting people in a box with five exceptions, because everyone is unique and their situation, experiences, wants, and needs are unique.
As an aside to Liz, print is dying. Give it 10 years and people won't be consuming their content that way. Anyone trying to break into "print" publication for anything other than books (and in some cases maybe books as well) isn't looking at the big picture, IMO.
Of course then again I know content mills won't be around forever, I'm milking it while it's here and I need it. If people want to do that with print publication freelancing too, hey, go with my blessing!
Z
Oh I'm not talking about barriers to writing assignments. I know I could write anywhere I wanted to if I worked hard enough to do that. I do not WANT to be a freelance writer. I just am not interested. When I was talking about my employability (is that a word?), I mean JOBS like traditional 9-5 jobs. Not anything contractor-based or self-employed.
I do not believe I am destined to be poor and put upon because I didn't finish college. I think it's an advantage for me because it's shaken me out of complacency and going after the "normal" goals in life, which leads most to cubicleville.
Having said that though, I think saying DS isn't going to lead to $100,000 a year is VERY short-sighted and linear thinking. In fact I would almost venture to say it's "cubicleville" thinking.
I can guarantee you that within the next 10 years I will be making 100k a year. I do not think in terms of "one job" and "one gig." I think in terms of multiple profit centers. Different income streams, different projects. Building passive income streams so you do the work once and get paid forever. (And I know there were a bunch of sentence fragments there.)
Demand Studios is "not" that kind of income stream, BUT it takes all types of income streams to get your little snowball rolling down the hill and building up steam. DS is money. DS is more money made quicker than I could make in anything else I'm qualified to do.
Now sure I could become a "freelance writer" and submit to editors and all that crap but I do not WANT to do that. Maybe you could put me in the category of people who don't want to market their writing, but that's too simplistic too. I don't want to market THAT kind of writing, because it simply doesn't interest me.
The kind of writing I want to market? I want to market my fiction, I want to market my infoproducts I'm working on, I want to market websites I'm building and writing all the content for and monetizing. And then I have a few income streams down the line as some of these get going that will be a little different and focus on other passions and interests of mine.
The bottom line is, I really don't like working for other people. And freelance writing to me is a step between self-employment and traditional employment that doesn't truly satisfy me.
So that's the thing. With fast enough writing, I can use DS to fund starting other projects and moving those projects forward. Someday I will make $100k and then I'll make more. (and no, most of that won't be from fiction, but again, I have MULTIPLE streams I'm building), but it will have started out with Demand Studios and would have been much harder without it.
As for my per hour rate with DS, I'm getting faster and as I'm learning the little tricks I'm making $20-$30 an hour now. I get the writing I need to get done in 2 or 3 hours on DS a day Monday-Friday. I'm fortunate in that I do not have to work a full time. It does not exhaust me or take up all my energy, it finances my other projects that will move me ahead.
Freelance writing would be a waste of time for me because it would take too much time and energy focusing on something I don't want to do. THEN the situation would be, I would be busy chasing after freelance writing assignments and wouldn't have the energy to follow my real dreams both writing and otherwise.
I understand what you're trying to do and that your heart is in the right place, Carol. However, there is some danger in putting people in a box with five exceptions, because everyone is unique and their situation, experiences, wants, and needs are unique.
As an aside to Liz, print is dying. Give it 10 years and people won't be consuming their content that way. Anyone trying to break into "print" publication for anything other than books (and in some cases maybe books as well) isn't looking at the big picture, IMO.
Of course then again I know content mills won't be around forever, I'm milking it while it's here and I need it. If people want to do that with print publication freelancing too, hey, go with my blessing!
Z
Liz -- if you're thinking I'm one of those pompous writers who tell people not to write for the Web, you'd be wrong! Read through my blogs and you'll see that I often discuss the many great-paying opportunities available online.
I'm writing a $1500 article for a major magazine right now -- that is an online exclusive, it will never appear in print. I made $10K at the end of last year in like 6 weeks all in blogs and online articles.
In my mind there's not a print/online divide -- there's a "pays great" and "doesn't pay enough" divide. I'm platform-agnostic when it comes to where the writing is going to appear. Some print magazines pay squat! And I certainly don't advocate people spend time pursuing assignments from them. And plenty of online products now pay wonderfully well. Print may or may not totally die off...but in the meanwhile, writers need to eat.
I'm in favor of writers getting paid well. That's the point of my blog and all the services I offer writers.
Zoe, sounds like you have some great projects of your own you're developing -- and I'm very much in favor of that too. I strongly encourage writers to monetize their own niche sites and ebooks -- can be a great alternative to writing for others that puts you in more control.
If you don't want to be a freelance writer and just want to make some spare cash while you launch other products, content mills are probably a good, easy way to do that. My focus is on helping people who want to succeed as freelancers and help them up to the next rungs of their earning ladder.
Carol
I'm writing a $1500 article for a major magazine right now -- that is an online exclusive, it will never appear in print. I made $10K at the end of last year in like 6 weeks all in blogs and online articles.
In my mind there's not a print/online divide -- there's a "pays great" and "doesn't pay enough" divide. I'm platform-agnostic when it comes to where the writing is going to appear. Some print magazines pay squat! And I certainly don't advocate people spend time pursuing assignments from them. And plenty of online products now pay wonderfully well. Print may or may not totally die off...but in the meanwhile, writers need to eat.
I'm in favor of writers getting paid well. That's the point of my blog and all the services I offer writers.
Zoe, sounds like you have some great projects of your own you're developing -- and I'm very much in favor of that too. I strongly encourage writers to monetize their own niche sites and ebooks -- can be a great alternative to writing for others that puts you in more control.
If you don't want to be a freelance writer and just want to make some spare cash while you launch other products, content mills are probably a good, easy way to do that. My focus is on helping people who want to succeed as freelancers and help them up to the next rungs of their earning ladder.
Carol
Hey Carol, Thanks!
And I totally understand your focus, and that's cool! I think it's great that there are people out there helping people aim for higher things. When I see people working full time at content mill sites it makes me sad because those sites probably won't last forever, and without building anything else to replace it and even surpass it. :D
Z
And I totally understand your focus, and that's cool! I think it's great that there are people out there helping people aim for higher things. When I see people working full time at content mill sites it makes me sad because those sites probably won't last forever, and without building anything else to replace it and even surpass it. :D
Z
All I know is I work 30 hours a week with \"content mills\" and cleared 62k in 2009. I grabbed a few private clients that found me through my private client work, worked way too hard and made maybe an extra 8k from them. So, I will be sticking with the mills who pay me extremely well and are incredibly reliable.
And I make more than 300 bucks a week at Demand. More like 650 a week minimum. I write list articles on topics I know well and can easily write one that is written well in 15 minutes. So, 60 bucks an hour is nothing to sneeze at. Let\'s add in those easy-to-write 25 dollar partner calls at Associated Content and my performance bonus and that\'s another thousand a month minimum at AC alone.
I will never write for a private client again because they want too much work for too little money. I will stick to \"content mills\" because they pay well and are easy to write for.
You\'d have to be insane to think that 60 bucks an hour from the comfort of my couch isn\'t great money.
Also, I completely agree with everything Tsu Dho Nimh said and see her in the AC forums a lot. Hi Tsu!
And I make more than 300 bucks a week at Demand. More like 650 a week minimum. I write list articles on topics I know well and can easily write one that is written well in 15 minutes. So, 60 bucks an hour is nothing to sneeze at. Let\'s add in those easy-to-write 25 dollar partner calls at Associated Content and my performance bonus and that\'s another thousand a month minimum at AC alone.
I will never write for a private client again because they want too much work for too little money. I will stick to \"content mills\" because they pay well and are easy to write for.
You\'d have to be insane to think that 60 bucks an hour from the comfort of my couch isn\'t great money.
Also, I completely agree with everything Tsu Dho Nimh said and see her in the AC forums a lot. Hi Tsu!
Lindsey -- I think it's great too...just understand that by Demand's own calculations, your earnings are very exceptional. I'm just quoting what they said a typical active writer makes on Demand.
Sorry you found private clients too much bother...I've found them to be just wonderful and extremely lucrative.
Sorry you found private clients too much bother...I've found them to be just wonderful and extremely lucrative.
Nice, Lindsey :) You sound exactly like me :) Someone who is making content writing work for them.
I'm also with Zoe. Carol backs herself into a corner with her blanket statements like "You will never make 100k a year writing for places like Demand Studios".
What she means is SHE would never be able to make 100k a year writing for Demand Studios because Carol works in a different method. In her world, it is only her way or the highway. Any other routes are unacceptable and false. There are plenty of people out there who actually ARE breaking 80-100k a year writing solely for content sites. If I chose to work full time hours, I would break 100k a year. I don't, because I choose not to work more than 3-4 hours a day. But I could...easily. If I wanted to. But breaking 100k a year isn't my thing. I'm more than happy making that 50k a year, because my cost of living is nill.
Interestingly enough my current writing experiment shows how anyone, regardless of how skilled or unskilled, can walk into a content writing site like Demand Studios and make a minimum of 50k a year. Check out week 3's results, just posted today. 50 dollars an hour is more money than the average upper management position in ANY major corporation in America.
Remember, folks, the only true path to success is the one YOU choose for yourself. Anyone who tells you their way is the only way to success and uses words like "can't" in their vocabulary are only out to shut you down. If you really want to be successful, use your mind. The rest will follow.
I'm also with Zoe. Carol backs herself into a corner with her blanket statements like "You will never make 100k a year writing for places like Demand Studios".
What she means is SHE would never be able to make 100k a year writing for Demand Studios because Carol works in a different method. In her world, it is only her way or the highway. Any other routes are unacceptable and false. There are plenty of people out there who actually ARE breaking 80-100k a year writing solely for content sites. If I chose to work full time hours, I would break 100k a year. I don't, because I choose not to work more than 3-4 hours a day. But I could...easily. If I wanted to. But breaking 100k a year isn't my thing. I'm more than happy making that 50k a year, because my cost of living is nill.
Interestingly enough my current writing experiment shows how anyone, regardless of how skilled or unskilled, can walk into a content writing site like Demand Studios and make a minimum of 50k a year. Check out week 3's results, just posted today. 50 dollars an hour is more money than the average upper management position in ANY major corporation in America.
Remember, folks, the only true path to success is the one YOU choose for yourself. Anyone who tells you their way is the only way to success and uses words like "can't" in their vocabulary are only out to shut you down. If you really want to be successful, use your mind. The rest will follow.
Where I live, I sometimes take a ferry into a dock that's near where a lot of Alaska cruise ships dock. After a couple years of freelancing, I set a goal of taking my family on one of those cruises by landing one new, great-paying major client. In 2007, I did it. So that's what I'm speaking to -- I'm here to help people learn how to have the money to really enjoy life, through their writing. Without having to move to Bulgaria to cut expenses.
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